and when you've found your breeder......

[Janelise]

This is straying slightly off the topic, but I’ve just received a phone call from a man who clearly knows me, telling me we met at X, Y and Z shows. His little black and tan bitch has just come into season and he wants to use my stud dog. Which dog? Oh, Cedric. Is your bitch up to date with her heart and eye tests? No. She’s in season so I don’t want to take her to the vet. This seemed a bit odd: she is over two years old so there has been time!

We have caller display and I could see his number is in the Bordeaux region, so told him that he had time to get her both the ophthalmologist at Begles and the cardiologist at Pessac (he knew their names!), and get the tests done before she was ready to be mated. I also asked him to send me her pedigree by Internet.

Guess what: he hasn’t!!!

I suspect that he may look for someone else who is less strict
The girl who now has her dog is being, thankfully, mentored by a mutual friend who is an ethical breeder.
Jane

[eJoanna]

Originally Posted by Murphy

a novice might be tempted to allow his/her male to be used by unsuitable breeders - unsuitable in the sense that they could be less scrupulous than they appear to an inexperienced dog owner, or alternatively, have bitches whose lines did not 'go well' with those of the stud dog.
It could be very easy for a Novice stud dog owner to be flattered by smooth talk. That is where breeder guidance would be helpful.

Elspeth - I agree that described by you situation can happen and there is risk. But I also think that the person, who made efforts to research the breed, research who good breeders are and reach to those people, figure out what dogs she/he is dreaming about, is pretty much aware of consequences of her/his decisions in terms of breeding. Honestly, I would never make that decision myself, without talking to experinced people.

On the other hand, a person who bought a dog from another source, may behave the way that Janelise just described - just not educated enough and not aware about the breed specific issues.

[Murphy]

"However, I am wondering why they would trust more selling a male to a novice than a female. In terms of the most important issue which is breeding to improve the breed (I assume it is always possible consequence of having a show dog) owning either one will have the same consequences to the breed. "
__________________
Joanna, I am getting a bit lost here: above is the question you asked. I have answered it as best I can from my own experience.
It is a pity that you have problems obtaining a good dog/bitch in the US. All I have been trying to point out is that there are ways of easing yourself into the world of showing - one of which I described, but there are others, such as becoming part of a breed Club, helping at Shows, joining committees - all of these things get you known to people, allow you to find out at first hand who might have a litter due, a puppy which has been run on, maybe looking for a Show home.
There is nothing quite like being in the right place at the right time - it can be very helpful.
However, I think we have probably exhausted this topic, for now.
Elspeth

[eJoanna]

Elspeth, I fully appreciate your advice and definietely a good intention. I think we have missunderstood each other. My intend was to discuss a situtiation in general, trying to understand motives and different views (since it is a discussion forum) and not personal situation or make it personal. If it appeared this way, I appologize.

[Brightness]

Jane,

I am sorry the lady had to go through so much to find her Cavalier & I can to a point, empathise.

I started my search for a Cavalier 12 years ago and had researched the breed thoroughly (having wanted one since childhood!). I had also babysat Cavaliers for weeks at a time so I knew what I would be taking on with the breed (I grew up with a boxer and toy poodles!).

However, I found that the only breeders who were willing, well actually no, desperate (!) to sell me a pup were the byb's or 'meet me on a layby of the M5 type (puppy farmers or brokers).

Maxx came into my life two years later by chance when my friend brought her two B&T's for a visit and told me that the breeder of her eldest bitch (they were mum and daughter) had a litter and to ring her which I did. She'd sadly sold all of her litter but said that her friend 'may have a litter due' and gave me her number.

I rang the lady and was 'interrogated' over the phone before she admitted that yes, she did indeed have a litter, just born and as I was a friend of her best friend and knew her best freind well and had looked after the offspring then I could go and see them.

Before we were allowed to see the puppies we met both Dad and the rest of the family (I think, to see how we coped with meeting a pile of Cavaliers) - my kids were in their element and were quite happy to take home a 'ready made one' rather than wait for a pup LOL.

We then had to wash our hands etc and were introduced to Mum and babies. We had a coffee whilst all health certificates for mum and dad & grannies and grandads were shown to us & to give Mum time to get used to us and were then allowed to get nearer. I was extremely lucky that I had, apart from the two she'd decided to keep, pick of the litter. I visited weekly until it was time to bring Maxx home and have never looked back. I am still in touch with his breeder and consider her to be a really good but not so well known breeder.

So, whilst as I say I can empathise with her and also sympathise I can also understand why some breeders won't even let on that they have a litter as they are so cautious about whom their puppies go to. It only takes one bad experience.....

I think perserverance is the key though - it took me 2 years to get my gorgeous boy.

[Janelise]

There was something I wanted to tell Murphy: I'm not sure where you are, geographically, but we have a BIG problem in France, due to the laws of sale.

By law we MUST have a contract of sale, and we may not make ANY legal conditions. No spay/neuter condition, no witholding of registration. We may not even legally demand that we have the dog back should there ever be a problem - and ill health or death are reasons we'd taken a couple back when in the UK. The most we can do is say that a dog "may not be confirmable" (explanation in two paragraphs) due to a defect. For a Cavalier that would be monorchid, pirate marked, very under or overshot, etc.

We are, as breeders, liable for the pup's health for the first six weeks after sale, but only, thankfully, specified diseases. Some breeds must be guaranteed clear of HD, not possible to test before a dog is a year old, so their breeders are generally insured as they are required to refund the purchase price (nothing else: health tests remain at the charge of the owner) if a dog has HD.

We DO need to be cautious. One ray of hope: Confirmation. For its progeny to be registered, a dog had to be examined by a qualified judge and declared to be at least a reasonable example of its breed before it can be issued its definitive registration papers. That means the really poor examples don't get bred from - or, if they do, they can't legally be described as "pedigree".

How things change! When I bought my first Cavalier, she was just for a pet. The owner of her father saw her, told me it would be a waste NOT to breed from her, and advised me on a suitable stud dog.

Can't see that happening now.
Jane